Jovan Belcher, a gem found in the rough ?

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Timmons role isn't different? He doesn't have an elite NT in front of him? And what exactly does he have to do with the Ravens?

I don't know how many of the Jets and Steelers games I've watched over the last 2 seasons, but I know they're on TV all the damn time, I know my neighbor has Sunday ticket and I watch a shitload of football. So unless you've become some guru of East Coast football out in Cali, I'm not inclined to believe you've watched infinitely more Jets or Steelers games than I have.

Well, since I DO the Sunday Ticket and I DO watch a shit ton of Jets and Steelers, I'd say you're wrong.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

And Belcher was at 242 when he ran his 4.85 at the combine (i.e. almost exactly what Scott's doing). I don't know what he runs it in now, but I don't imagine he's lost any steps at 23 years old. And no, he wasn't getting consistently 'punked' by FBs and RBs. He was, however, consistently getting blasted by guards and over the course of the game that certainly took a toll on him. So yeah, he wasn't as effective as an ILB that didn't have to take on 300 lb men as often would've been.

You say I'm ignoring your point, but you continue to disregard the fact that Belcher was constantly under attack by blockers due to completely ineffectual play by his NT. This damages his reputation (the more often he has to shed tacklers, the more often he won't manage it by the virtue of sheer mathmatics), but it also damages his ability to effectively shed those same blockers by wearing his ass out.

So, you're stating unequivocally that an upgrade or competition at the TED backer position would be a complete waste until a NT is in place? And that Belcher wouldn't benefit from playing at a higher weight or being more instinctive?

Okay. I'm convinced. Belcher is a stud and the TED backer couldn't possibly be upgraded with a different linebacker.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

So, you're stating unequivocally that an upgrade or competition at the TED backer position would be a complete waste until a NT is in place? And that Belcher wouldn't benefit from playing at a higher weight or being more instinctive?

Okay. I'm convinced. Belcher is a stud and the TED backer couldn't possibly be upgraded with a different linebacker.

As I said from the very beginning: You're providing a useless truism.

Unless you have the best player in the league at every position in the field, your team is always improved by upgrading on a player. The question is not and has not ever been 'is Jovan Belcher an irreplaceable, elite ILB that clearly cannot be upgraded upon?'

The question is: Is that a wise use of limited resources in light of the many other holes this team has in combination with Belcher's youth and production.

I see that answer as an unqualified 'NO' - it's a horrid use of those resources. His instincts are not bad at all for a guy that came from a small program. In fact, it's the more 'refined' areas of his game that need work (ability to operate well in space, how to use his hands effectively, etc...). Fortunately he's 23 years old in his 2nd year of professional football, so I think there's time for him yet to improve in those areas. And would he be better if he was heavier? I don't really think he needs to be, as much as it pains me to admit it, I think the Guardian is right here - he's probably playing around 230-240 lbs. Could he put on 5-10? Sure, but again, as I've noted, give him another season on an NFL strength and conditioning schedule and there's no question in my mind he can get there.

You continue, over and over again, to ignore my clearly stated positions in favor of useless straw-men. Perhaps you should just go re-read the thread before you hit submit next time and ask yourself "has the person I'm speaking to already addressed this?" It would really save us both some time.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

As I said from the very beginning: You're providing a useless truism.

Unless you have the best player in the league at every position in the field, your team is always improved by upgrading on a player. The question is not and has not ever been 'is Jovan Belcher an irreplaceable, elite ILB that clearly cannot be upgraded upon?'

The question is: Is that a wise use of limited resources in light of the many other holes this team has in combination with Belcher's youth and production.

I see that answer as an unqualified 'NO' - it's a horrid use of those resources. His instincts are not bad at all for a guy that came from a small program. In fact, it's the more 'refined' areas of his game that need work (ability to operate well in space, how to use his hands effectively, etc...). Fortunately he's 23 years old in his 2nd year of professional football, so I think there's time for him yet to improve in those areas. And would he be better if he was heavier? I don't really think he needs to be, as much as it pains me to admit it, I think the Guardian is right here - he's probably playing around 230-240 lbs. Could he put on 5-10? Sure, but again, as I've noted, give him another season on an NFL strength and conditioning schedule and there's no question in my mind he can get there.

You continue, over and over again, to ignore my clearly stated positions in favor of useless straw-men. Perhaps you should just go re-read the thread before you hit submit next time and ask yourself "has the person I'm speaking to already addressed this?" It would really save us both some time.

I've got a better idea: I'll just ignore your stupid ass altogether.

Yay Belcher! Best ILB in the league.

****tard.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

I've got a better idea: I'll just ignore your stupid ass altogether.

Yay Belcher! Best ILB in the league.

****tard.

Come on Dane.

That isn't remotely close to what he is saying.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by milkman

Come on Dane.

That isn't remotely close to what he is saying.

No, but he's completely avoiding the fact that the TED backer position could be upgraded and is blaming Belcher's issues squarely on the lack of a true nose tackle.

As I stated earlier, Belcher clearly improved from his rookie season but he still has issues of shedding blocks, speed, quickness and instinct. We all know that guys may run slower but play faster due to their football instincts but, I haven't seen that ability in Belcher yet. Maybe he'll make another huge leap from year two to year three and it won't be an issue from a starting position standpoint.

But again, if the Chiefs can logically upgrade that position, whether it be depth or competition, it would be a mistake to pass.

[TheGuardian]

Every position could in theory be upgraded.

However upgrading at inside backer over Belcher is NOT pressing. His play was solid, and when you are in your second year and only first year starting and you are solid why would we be out trying to find an upgrade instead of allowing the player to ascend?

It's stupid as shit.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by TheGuardian

Every position could in theory be upgraded.

However upgrading at inside backer over Belcher is NOT pressing. His play was solid, and when you are in your second year and only first year starting and you are solid why would we be out trying to find an upgrade instead of allowing the player to ascend?

It's stupid as shit.

I never stated it was pressing. What I stated was that if the Chiefs passed on an opportunity to acquire a solid backup or even competition at that position, they'd be remiss in doing so.

Nothing less. I never stated he sucked, I never stated he shouldn't be the starter, I never stated he hadn't improved - nothing. None of the above.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

No, but he's completely avoiding the fact that the TED backer position could be upgraded and is blaming Belcher's issues squarely on the lack of a true nose tackle.

As I stated earlier, Belcher clearly improved from his rookie season but he still has issues of shedding blocks, speed, quickness and instinct. We all know that guys may run slower but play faster due to their football instincts but, I haven't seen that ability in Belcher yet. Maybe he'll make another huge leap from year two to year three and it won't be an issue from a starting position standpoint.

But again, if the Chiefs can logically upgrade that position, whether it be depth or competition, it would be a mistake to pass.

His argument is that Belcher shows signs of being an ascending player, and that there should be no rush to replace him, given the more pressing needs that this team has.

He does need to improve, but part of his struggles can also be directly attributed to the fact that guards can get out on him unmolested, and the fact is that in a battle between the guard and LB, the gurd is going to win that battle a 80-85% of the time.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by milkman

His argument is that Belcher shows signs of being an ascending player, and that there should be no rush to replace him, given the more pressing needs that this team has.

He does need to improve, but part of his struggles can also be directly attributed to the fact that guards can get out on him unmolested, and the fact is that in a battle between the guard and LB, the gurd is going to win that battle a 80-85% of the time.

And I've not stated anywhere in this thread that there should be a rush to replace him. I've pointed out his weaknesses and stated that the Chiefs would be remiss if they passed on a logical possibility of adding a backup or even competition at the spot.

"Logical" implying that it would be a no-brainer.