Chiefs what's with all the Orton isn't the answer talk? - Page 18

wutamess · 12-20-2011, 08:30 AM

OK he has the same stats avg as Cassle. BS! My dad and I argue about the Cheifs as if we're Pioli and Haley. I told him 3 weeeks ago, "dude. We finally have our QB." He looked at me like I was crazy and borderline ignored me.

I tried explaining to him we finaly have a qb that can make all of the throws. All he could muster up was he wasn't shit in Denve and he wasn Shit in Chicago. I told him he had good stats lat yar and turned Brandn Lloyd into NFLs #1 wr last year. He wasn't buying it but my point was valid.

I further went to explain that now Orton had something he's NEVER had as far as weapons. Now he has 2 BIG WRs as well as a WR that will stretch the field. Add JC and Moeki coming back next year and I think we can be a top 5 offense with Orton.

I just don't understand why people think he's a fluke ad try to compare him to Cassle when he's HEAD AND SHOULDERS above Cassel in EVERY category. I'll go so far as to say we don't need to draft qb this year if we sign Orton... I'm als thinking with Berry coming back and a O tackle and another stud LB to complement DJ, we're poised for a SUPERBOWL RUN!

patteeu · 12-21-2011, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PGM

So? Manning was slinging the ball to Harrison, Wayne, and Clark during that time and was the only QB to throw for more yards over a couple years span Green was in KC.

So... Trent Green is no Peyton Manning. He was a decent quarterback in a great situation. He wasn't the "stud" that BigChiefTablet and others think he was.

bricks · 12-21-2011, 10:30 AM

Cassel and Haley have been fortunate to be surrounded by good casts throughout most of their careers.

Cassel had a great wide receiver corps in New England with Moss and Welker and a good defense around him with a good coaching staff. Last year in KC he was surrounded with a similar situation, except Todd Haley is not a great coach. Last year he had great running game, good defense behind him and a great offensive coordinator in Charlie Weis.

I think that pretty much explains why he had a productive season because he was surrounded with a good cast.

Take Todd Haley throughout his career he's been blessed with great wide receivers in Keyshawn, Owens, Booker, Fitzgerald, Boldin. Yeah he had a good wide receiving corps in Arizona but he also had a great quarterback in Kurt Warner and he ran an offense that was under Ken Whisenhunt.

This year was truly a message to reveal how shit Todd Haley and Matt Cassel really are. Especially when they had to do things independently by themselves. Charles goes down, Moeaki gets hurt, Weis leaves, the schedule isn't as soft, look what happens? you see how crap they really are. Those guys have had their weaknesses masked throughout most of their careers. At least Pioli did something right by firing Haley. Now if he keeps Cassel he is simply a moron.

milkman · 12-21-2011, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bricks

Cassel and Haley have been fortunate to be surrounded by good casts throughout most of their careers.

Cassel had a great wide receiver corps in New England with Moss and Welker and a good defense around him with a good coaching staff. Last year in KC he was surrounded with a similar situation, except Todd Haley is not a great coach. Last year he had great running game, good defense behind him and a great offensive coordinator in Charlie Weis.

I think that pretty much explains why he had a productive season because he was surrounded with a good cast.

Take Todd Haley throughout his career he's been blessed with great wide receivers in Keyshawn, Owens, Booker, Fitzgerald, Boldin. Yeah he had a good wide receiving corps in Arizona but he also had a great quarterback in Kurt Warner and he ran an offense that was under Ken Whisenhunt.

This year was truly a message to reveal how shit Todd Haley and Matt Cassel really are. Especially when they had to do things independently by themselves. Charles goes down, Moeaki gets hurt, Weis leaves, the schedule isn't as soft, look what happens? you see how crap they really are. Those guys have had their weaknesses masked throughout most of their careers. At least Pioli did something right by firing Haley. Now if he keeps Cassel he is simply a moron.

Any perceived improvement is Cassel's play since he's been a Chief has been the direct result of Charles in the lineup.

Take Charles out of the lineup, and Cassel's suckiness is on full display.

wutamess · 12-21-2011, 10:40 AM

Lets not get too confused about who Trent Green is here... his first season here... he didn't have the arm strength and was labeled TrINT by almost everyone. Years following priest Holmes bailed his ass out by taking his dumpoffs to the house. Trent has NEVER been an all on his shoulders QB as he was aided by an excellent O-Line and above avg surrounding cast. He went 20 yards DOWN FIELD unless it was up the seam to Gonzo and maybe a bomb to EK. His 4000/year numbers were inflated by YAC #'s. Not by actually going down the field.

YAC per reception - 2002 season
Trent Green 6.33
Rich Gannon 5.65
Mark Brunell 5.45
Joey Harrington 5.41

% of passing yards AFTER the catch!
Tom Brady 52.66
Joey Harrington 50.74
Rich Gannon 50.35
Trent Green 49.24

Here are the YAC stats for receivers
1 Priest Holmes KC 774
2 Charlie Garner Oak 769
3 Terrell Owens SF 599

For Green

15.1% of attempts were behind LOS

Read more: http://forums.kffl.com/threads/12959...#ixzz1hBkQrGgl

What might be of particular interest to Chiefs fans reading the article is a perceived slight of former two-time Pro Bowl and Super Bowl champion quarterback Trent Green, both by Murphy and Gonzalez.

"The numbers the tight end (Gonzalez) put up in Kansas City, year after year, are all the more impressive considering that he never worked with a topflight quarterback," says Murphy.

**The Franchise** · 12-21-2011, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whosyou

Made of weed? Seriously, Cassel had a magical season last year. If he had the o line and run game Green had, we'd of beat Baltimore last year in the playoffs.

That was magical season?

**The Franchise** · 12-21-2011, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wutamess

Lets not get too confused about who Trent Green is here... his first season here... he didn't have the amr strength and was labled TrINT by almost everyone. Years following priest Holmes bailed his ass out by taking his dumpoffs to the house. Trent has NEVER been an all on his shoulders QB as he was aided by an excellent O-Line and above avg surrounding cast. He went 20 yards DOWN FIELD unless it was up the seam to Gonzo and maybe a bomb to EK. His 4000/year numbers were inflated by YAC #'s. Not by actually going down the field.

YAC per reception - 2002 season
Trent Green 6.33
Rich Gannon 5.65
Mark Brunell 5.45
Joey Harrington 5.41

Here's another one for you - % of passing yards AFTER the catch!

Tom Brady 52.66
Joey Harrington 50.74
Rich Gannon 50.35
Trent Green 49.24

Here are the YAC stats for receivers - I don't even have to do the math for you to see that Marvin has very very very low YAC.

1 Priest Holmes KC 774
2 Charlie Garner Oak 769
3 Terrell Owens SF 599

That sounds a lot like Cassel in New England.

Hammock Parties · 12-21-2011, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wutamess

Years following priest Holmes bailed his ass out by taking his dumpoffs to the house.

What a freaking joke.

Priest Holmes had 187 yards receiving in 2004 and Trent still passed for 4,600 yards.

There is no evidence that supports this asinine Orton > Green theory.

Beef Supreme · 12-21-2011, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu

So... Trent Green is no Peyton Manning. He was a decent quarterback in a great situation. He wasn't the "stud" that BigChiefTablet and others think he was.

Peyton Manning was number 2 on NFL Network's greatest players of all time. So by your standard, he and Tom Brady are the only quarterbacks ever that have been worth a shit. Good luck finding a quarterback that lives up to your expectations.

Trent Green played against Manning in the 2003 playoffs. In a game with ZERO punts, we lost by one touchdown. We had a touchdown called back at the end of the first half because Tony G. was called for offensive pass interference. Holmes fumbled once in the second half, and the Colts took advantage and scored. The Chiefs lost because we had no defense at all.

You are right, Trent Green is no Peyton Manning. But he was definitely a stud quarterback.

Denny · 12-21-2011, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

Quote:

No idea who "Carl Peterson" is

Really?
Were you born yesterday?

Nope. In fact I was born 51 years ago.

In Chicago.

He might be tremendously important to Kansas City, but that doesn't mean the rest of the country has even noticed him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

Denny, what team do you root for? I'm assuming it's not KC since you said you didn't know who Peterson was.

As I just said, I was born in Chicago. So MY team is Da Bears.

But I have spent my adult life in the Air Force. So I've moved around a bit and learned to appreciate other NFL teams. I watch beyond the Bears, although I always watch the Bears.

I'll admit to being a "player-fan" as well as a "team-fan." I liked Orton in Chicago. He was clearly the Bears' best QB since Dave Krieg in the mid-90s and the best one we'd drafted since Jim McMahon. I still think that Chicago would be better off if they'd kept Orton instead of trading him for Cutler. I was very upset when KC grabbed him off waivers before the Bears could (but the Cowboys still would have kept him from us).

Admittedly, I hadn't paid much attention to the Chiefs before Kyle landed in KC. But I have to say that the Defense, WRs, and RBs were very impressive looking in last week's game. They look like a fun team to watch for the rest of this season...

wutamess · 12-21-2011, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pestilence

That sounds a lot like Cassel in New England.

THIS! I've said it form day 1.
Although... Cassle STILL led the league in sacks that year.

wutamess · 12-21-2011, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omega

What a freaking joke.

Priest Holmes had 187 yards receiving in 2004 and Trent still passed for 4,600 yards.

There is no evidence that supports this asinine Orton > Green theory.

RB's still accounted for almost 1000 of those yards... Whether it was Priest, Johnson, Blaylock or T. Rich... point still valid.

milkman · 12-21-2011, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denny

Nope. In fact I was born 51 years ago.

In Chicago.

He might be tremendously important to Kansas City, but that doesn't mean the rest of the country has even noticed him.

As I just said, I was born in Chicago. So MY team is Da Bears.

But I have spent my adult life in the Air Force. So I've moved around a bit and learned to appreciate other NFL teams. I watch beyond the Bears, although I always watch the Bears.

I'll admit to being a "player-fan" as well as a "team-fan." I liked Orton in Chicago. He was clearly the Bears' best QB since Dave Krieg in the mid-90s and the best one we'd drafted since Jim McMahon. I still think that Chicago would be better off if they'd kept Orton instead of trading him for Cutler. I was very upset when KC grabbed him off waivers before the Bears could (but the Cowboys still would have kept him from us).

Admittedly, I hadn't paid much attention to the Chiefs before Kyle landed in KC. But I have to say that the Defense, WRs, and RBs were very impressive looking in last week's game. They look like a fun team to watch for the rest of this season...

The "Were you born yesterday?" question was posed to highlight your complete moronacy.

I'm not a Bears fan, but I know who Martin Mayhew is.

You do realize that Cutler makes plays under pressure that Orton is absolutely incapable of making?

I by,"you do realize", I mean you're a ****ing moron.

Orton is a guy that needs a clean pocket.

Chiefnj2 · 12-21-2011, 11:02 AM

Milkman's gout must be acting up.

patteeu · 12-21-2011, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denny

Nope. In fact I was born 51 years ago.

In Chicago.

He might be tremendously important to Kansas City, but that doesn't mean the rest of the country has even noticed him.

As I just said, I was born in Chicago. So MY team is Da Bears.

But I have spent my adult life in the Air Force. So I've moved around a bit and learned to appreciate other NFL teams. I watch beyond the Bears, although I always watch the Bears.

I'll admit to being a "player-fan" as well as a "team-fan." I liked Orton in Chicago. He was clearly the Bears' best QB since Dave Krieg in the mid-90s and the best one we'd drafted since Jim McMahon. I still think that Chicago would be better off if they'd kept Orton instead of trading him for Cutler. I was very upset when KC grabbed him off waivers before the Bears could (but the Cowboys still would have kept him from us).

Admittedly, I hadn't paid much attention to the Chiefs before Kyle landed in KC. But I have to say that the Defense, WRs, and RBs were very impressive looking in last week's game. They look like a fun team to watch for the rest of this season...

Thanks for posting. It's good to get an outsider's perspective. Groupthink distorts reality at times in a place like this.

milkman · 12-21-2011, 11:06 AM

The thing that separates elite QBs from the league average is how they perform under pressure.

Every QB is going to struggle against pressure, but the elite ones are the ones that can consistently rise above that pressure and make plays.

They aren't going to succeed every time, but their success rate is far greater than the league average.

12-20-2011, 08:30 AM
wutamess MVP Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Lee's Summit Casino cash: $4711637	what's with all the Orton isn't the answer talk? OK he has the same stats avg as Cassle. BS! My dad and I argue about the Cheifs as if we're Pioli and Haley. I told him 3 weeeks ago, "dude. We finally have our QB." He looked at me like I was crazy and borderline ignored me. I tried explaining to him we finaly have a qb that can make all of the throws. All he could muster up was he wasn't shit in Denve and he wasn Shit in Chicago. I told him he had good stats lat yar and turned Brandn Lloyd into NFLs #1 wr last year. He wasn't buying it but my point was valid. I further went to explain that now Orton had something he's NEVER had as far as weapons. Now he has 2 BIG WRs as well as a WR that will stretch the field. Add JC and Moeki coming back next year and I think we can be a top 5 offense with Orton. I just don't understand why people think he's a fluke ad try to compare him to Cassle when he's HEAD AND SHOULDERS above Cassel in EVERY category. I'll go so far as to say we don't need to draft qb this year if we sign Orton... I'm als thinking with Berry coming back and a O tackle and another stud LB to complement DJ, we're poised for a SUPERBOWL RUN!
Posts: 8,290

12-21-2011, 10:30 AM	#257
bricks Hey Teacher! Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: land of maple syrup Casino cash: $9732559	Cassel and Haley have been fortunate to be surrounded by good casts throughout most of their careers. Cassel had a great wide receiver corps in New England with Moss and Welker and a good defense around him with a good coaching staff. Last year in KC he was surrounded with a similar situation, except Todd Haley is not a great coach. Last year he had great running game, good defense behind him and a great offensive coordinator in Charlie Weis. I think that pretty much explains why he had a productive season because he was surrounded with a good cast. Take Todd Haley throughout his career he's been blessed with great wide receivers in Keyshawn, Owens, Booker, Fitzgerald, Boldin. Yeah he had a good wide receiving corps in Arizona but he also had a great quarterback in Kurt Warner and he ran an offense that was under Ken Whisenhunt. This year was truly a message to reveal how shit Todd Haley and Matt Cassel really are. Especially when they had to do things independently by themselves. Charles goes down, Moeaki gets hurt, Weis leaves, the schedule isn't as soft, look what happens? you see how crap they really are. Those guys have had their weaknesses masked throughout most of their careers. At least Pioli did something right by firing Haley. Now if he keeps Cassel he is simply a moron.
Posts: 5,513

12-21-2011, 10:40 AM	#259
wutamess MVP Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Lee's Summit Casino cash: $4711637	Lets not get too confused about who Trent Green is here... his first season here... he didn't have the arm strength and was labeled TrINT by almost everyone. Years following priest Holmes bailed his ass out by taking his dumpoffs to the house. Trent has NEVER been an all on his shoulders QB as he was aided by an excellent O-Line and above avg surrounding cast. He went 20 yards DOWN FIELD unless it was up the seam to Gonzo and maybe a bomb to EK. His 4000/year numbers were inflated by YAC #'s. Not by actually going down the field. YAC per reception - 2002 season Trent Green 6.33 Rich Gannon 5.65 Mark Brunell 5.45 Joey Harrington 5.41 % of passing yards AFTER the catch! Tom Brady 52.66 Joey Harrington 50.74 Rich Gannon 50.35 Trent Green 49.24 Here are the YAC stats for receivers 1 Priest Holmes KC 774 2 Charlie Garner Oak 769 3 Terrell Owens SF 599 For Green 15.1% of attempts were behind LOS Read more: http://forums.kffl.com/threads/12959...#ixzz1hBkQrGgl What might be of particular interest to Chiefs fans reading the article is a perceived slight of former two-time Pro Bowl and Super Bowl champion quarterback Trent Green, both by Murphy and Gonzalez. "The numbers the tight end (Gonzalez) put up in Kansas City, year after year, are all the more impressive considering that he never worked with a topflight quarterback," says Murphy. Last edited by wutamess; 12-21-2011 at 10:50 AM..
Posts: 8,290

12-21-2011, 11:02 AM	#268
Chiefnj2 In Search of a Life Join Date: Mar 2007 Casino cash: $6654388	Milkman's gout must be acting up. __________________ Mismanaging the clock.
Posts: 22,541

12-21-2011, 11:06 AM	#270
milkman Dumbass! Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Leading the Marty bashing Casino cash: $10029395	The thing that separates elite QBs from the league average is how they perform under pressure. Every QB is going to struggle against pressure, but the elite ones are the ones that can consistently rise above that pressure and make plays. They aren't going to succeed every time, but their success rate is far greater than the league average. __________________
Posts: 70,769