Things I think it's time for:

[Direckshun]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

1. You can't trot Ammendola out again. You just can't. It'd be mutiny. I don't care what you do, you have to cut him and sign someone else. I'd go for two every time and have Reid kick off before I did that again.

2. Justin Watson needs way more snaps. Yes, he could've caught that one ball today, but he's big, he's fast, hes a physical match-up problem, and he usually catches the ball. He was inches away from another big TD today. Play him.

3. It's time to get Pacheco more touches. The midget squad isn't getting it done. It's not all their fault, but at least Pacheco is big and strong enough to maybe break some tackles.

4. It's time to bench Wylie. Wanegho can't be worse, and might have upside. Just do it, for accountability's sake if nothing else.

5. I think it's time to force feed more snaps to Moore. I don't want him returning punts anymore. Put Hardman there, you know what Hardman is, and he's not a route running WR. At least he might break a PR.

I think you're overreacting on Skyy Moore.

Listen, we all knew and said consistently that there would be "growing pains" with the rookies. But you guys simply don't think growing pains translate to losses. They do. We were talking about the growing pains being in the secondary, but turns out it was special teams rookies that cost us with Moore and Pacheco. Ride with rookies, and they will cost you games sometimes.

Moore, prior to this game, consistently showed good hands and decision-making in punt returns. Today's performance doesn't change that unless he just melts down in the face of his mistakes. Hardman is great for kickoff returns because there's no decision-making to be made, but he has a history of failing us on punt returns, making bad decisions or getting himself clocked. I have a shorter leash on Pacheco's kick returning, however, because Hardman does it well enough. Moore on punt returns is harder to duplicate.

We need to differentiate between the problems that are flukey, and the problems that are longer lasting.

I'm fine with booting Ammendola, but there's no Butker out there; whoever we sign is going to be at least the 33rd best kicker in the NFL. Ammendola is not going to cost us a Super Bowl, Rashad Fenton will. Moore screwing up a punt in Week 3 isn't going to cost us a Super Bowl, Andrew Wylie will. Chris Jones talking smack isn't going to cost us a Super Bowl, Marques Valdez-Scantling will.

The Chiefs have a protection issue, a receiving issue, and a Fenton issue. These are the things that will cost us a Super Bowl. Not Ammendola (although, fine: replace him).

Do the Chiefs have an answer for the protection issue? Call me crazy, but I think Lucas Niang is more than just a figment of my imagination. I think by Week 12 he could be the answer at RT. But who knows, maybe Wenogho is a better finger to put in the dam than Wylie.

Do the Chiefs have an answer for the receiving issue? We can't know that yet, because Moore/MVS/Watson/Schuster need more weeks in the offense. We'll have a better idea by Week 8.

Do the Chiefs have an answer for Fenton? I think they do, and that's putting him 4th on the depth chart when McDuffie returns.

[TwistedChief]

Originally Posted by Direckshun

I think you're overreacting on Skyy Moore.

Listen, we all knew and said consistently that there would be "growing pains" with the rookies. But you guys simply don't think growing pains translate to losses. They do. We were talking about the growing pains being in the secondary, but turns out it was special teams rookies that cost us with Moore and Pacheco. Ride with rookies, and they will cost you games sometimes.

Moore, prior to this game, consistently showed good hands and decision-making in punt returns. Today's performance doesn't change that unless he just melts down in the face of his mistakes. Hardman is great for kickoff returns because there's no decision-making to be made, but he has a history of failing us on punt returns, making bad decisions or getting himself clocked. I have a shorter leash on Pacheco's kick returning, however, because Hardman does it well enough. Moore on punt returns is harder to duplicate.

We need to differentiate between the problems that are flukey, and the problems that are longer lasting.

Nailed it.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Direckshun

I think you're overreacting on Skyy Moore.

Listen, we all knew and said consistently that there would be "growing pains" with the rookies. But you guys simply don't think growing pains translate to losses. They do. We were talking about the growing pains being in the secondary, but turns out it was special teams rookies that cost us with Moore and Pacheco. Ride with rookies, and they will cost you games sometimes.

Moore, prior to this game, consistently showed good hands and decision-making in punt returns. Today's performance doesn't change that unless he just melts down in the face of his mistakes. Hardman is great for kickoff returns because there's no decision-making to be made, but he has a history of failing us on punt returns, making bad decisions or getting himself clocked. I have a shorter leash on Pacheco's kick returning, however, because Hardman does it well enough. Moore on punt returns is harder to duplicate.

Sorry but I'm not seeing it.

Moore had a few bobbles/misreads on punts prior to the game. Some have mentioned it in previous threads even before yesterdays disaster.

He's not looked comfortable returning at all thus far, IMO. If you want him on KRs to get some experience and get a feel for the speed of the NFL - sure, that's fine.

But you can't have a skittish returner on punts. It put 7 points on the board AND killed the next offensive possession. That's a big big problem and I don't think it was nearly as unforeseeable as you do.

[Direckshun]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Sorry but I'm not seeing it.

Moore had a few bobbles/misreads on punts prior to the game. Some have mentioned it in previous threads even before yesterdays disaster.

He's not looked comfortable returning at all thus far, IMO. If you want him on KRs to get some experience and get a feel for the speed of the NFL - sure, that's fine.

But you can't have a skittish returner on punts. It put 7 points on the board AND killed the next offensive possession. That's a big big problem and I don't think it was nearly as unforeseeable as you do.

That's all fine and dandy, but if he gets a better feel for PRs, he gives you the highest ceiling.

The problem with yanking him off them is putting someone else there. Who do you put there that gives you what Moore does, if Moore can get the skill down? It's unclear to me, because Hardman is no good either.

I'm fine with the itchy trigger fingers on Pacheco at KR, because Hardman's good there.

I suppose McDuffie returned punts at training camp, but he's not coming down the mountainside for a few more weeks.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Direckshun

That's all fine and dandy, but if he gets a better feel for PRs, he gives you the highest ceiling.

The problem with yanking him off them is putting someone else there. Who do you put there that gives you what Moore does, if Moore can get the skill down? It's unclear to me, because Hardman is no good either.

I'm fine with the itchy trigger fingers on Pacheco at KR, because Hardman's good there.

I suppose McDuffie returned punts at training camp, but he's not coming down the mountainside for a few more weeks.

A) That's a MASSIVE 'if' you're putting in there. You think his college coaches didn't try him out returning punts? If he wasn't doing it in college, there's a reason for it.

B) I don't even see the 'high ceiling' you're referencing. He's not an open field burner, he's not a physical presence. He's a poor man's Dante Hall and Hall was a once in a generation sort of guy because of his comfort level and vision back there. The vast majority of guys that try to return like Dante Hall end up returning like De'Anthony Thomas.

The right answer is Hardman. He has genuine upside at the position. Plenty of experience with it. And he's just going to be safer back there. I don't see anywhere near the upside necessary to justify the risk. It's already cost us a game - you think he's gonna win us two at some point? I damn sure don't.

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

A) That's a MASSIVE 'if' you're putting in there. You think his college coaches didn't try him out returning punts? If he wasn't doing it in college, there's a reason for it.

B) I don't even see the 'high ceiling' you're referencing. He's not an open field burner, he's not a physical presence. He's a poor man's Dante Hall and Hall was a once in a generation sort of guy because of his comfort level and vision back there. The vast majority of guys that try to return like Dante Hall end up returning like De'Anthony Thomas.

The right answer is Hardman. He has genuine upside at the position. Plenty of experience with it. And he's just going to be safer back there. I don't see anywhere near the upside necessary to justify the risk. It's already cost us a game - you think he's gonna win us two at some point? I damn sure don't.

Hardman's only issue, that I can recall, is that he sometimes calls for fair catches inside the 10. I can live with that if he's breaking off long punt returns. I've yet to see Moore do anything back there that would tell you he excels at it.

[smithandrew051]

Originally Posted by The Franchise

Hardman's only issue, that I can recall, is that he sometimes calls for fair catches inside the 10. I can live with that if he's breaking off long punt returns. I've yet to see Moore do anything back there that would tell you he excels at it.

I’d prefer a more conservative approach to special teams overall, but that clearly isn’t going to happen with Toub.

With that in mind, put the guy back there who gives you the best chance for a big return. That guy is Hardman.

If we’re going this route (which I don’t like), then go with the guy with the upside.

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by smithandrew051

I’d prefer a more conservative approach to special teams overall, but that clearly isn’t going to happen with Toub.

With that in mind, put the guy back there who gives you the best chance for a big return. That guy is Hardman.

If we’re going this route (which I don’t like), then go with the guy with the upside.

Toub needs to go after this year. I don't give a shit anymore. I'm tired of him wasting roster spots on his guys instead of putting together a STs group with guys who can play actual positions.

[smithandrew051]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Sorry but I'm not seeing it.

Moore had a few bobbles/misreads on punts prior to the game. Some have mentioned it in previous threads even before yesterdays disaster.

He's not looked comfortable returning at all thus far, IMO. If you want him on KRs to get some experience and get a feel for the speed of the NFL - sure, that's fine.

But you can't have a skittish returner on punts. It put 7 points on the board AND killed the next offensive possession. That's a big big problem and I don't think it was nearly as unforeseeable as you do.

He didn’t return punts in college right? I’m really not a fan of having a second round pick out there in meaningful games trying to learn how.

[ToxSocks]

Originally Posted by smithandrew051

He didn’t return punts in college right? I’m really not a fan of having a second round pick out there in meaningful games trying to learn how.

No he didn't. And he's not exactly this crazy shifty game breaker either. And yeah, he has looked hesitant this entire time fielding kicks. You can tell he's not a natural at it.

And all it took was one **** up for him to go completely shell shocked on the next attempt.

[dirk digler]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

No he didn't. And he's not exactly this crazy shifty game breaker either. And yeah, he has looked hesitant this entire time fielding kicks. You can tell he's not a natural at it.

And all it took was one **** up for him to go completely shell shocked on the next attempt.

You can put this on Reid IMO. They wanted to keep Buechele so we wasted a roster spot keeping 3 QB's when we could have maybe a better returner back there.