Chiefs Vrabel and Hali are studs! - Page 8

Hammock Parties · 10-18-2009, 01:57 PM

One sack apiece today! We haven't seen a pass rush like this since the days of Derrick Thomas and Neil Smith!

Chiefnj2 · 10-19-2009, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SensibleChiefsfan

It is amazing what happens when you have an offense that is explosive and can give you leads, and all you have to do is rush the passer.

Yet, even with all his studliness, he had fewer sacks in 2006 than 'average' Tamba Hali. Hmmm.

He had his first pro bowl in his fourth year. Up until 2006, he was considered a liability against the run, and a one dimensional player. In 2006 he finally started to put together all of his repsonsibilities and fewer sacks than Hali.

In 2007, he finally broke out. His fourth year, also the year that they added a good DT playing next to him.

But, don't let the facts get in the way of your hero worship.

What a surprise, Herm Edwards takes over and Allen's numbers drop. I guess Herm can ruin anything if he tries.

Small school prospect puts up 9 sacks his rookie year and 11 the next year on a DL that is complete shit - yes, he was a force from the start. He is what you call a cornerstone.

SenselessChiefsFan · 10-19-2009, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

Rookie year, starting only 10 games, Allen had 9 sacks. His next year without Hali he had 11. Allen emerged as a force from the very beginning.

Oh, and IF Hali gets 11 this year, will he be a 'force'?

Just want to set the ground rules..... because I think 10 is coming....11 is possible.

And, 'if' he is a force, does that mean a cornerstone?

SenselessChiefsFan · 10-19-2009, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

What a surprise, Herm Edwards takes over and Allen's numbers drop. I guess Herm can ruin anything if he tries.

Small school prospect puts up 9 sacks his rookie year and 11 the next year on a DL that is complete shit - yes, he was a force from the start. He is what you call a cornerstone.

Well, I didn't think I would get much of an objective point of view here, don't know why I tried.

Thanks for the debate.

SenselessChiefsFan · 10-19-2009, 10:49 AM

To be clear..... I think Allen is a franchise player in the NFL. He is better than Hali beyond question. I just think that his production was clearly benefited by adding talent around him and game situations. Things that Hali does not have the benefit of at this time.

Additionally, Allen was a one dimensional player early and it wasn't until 2007 that he really put everything together and became dominant.

That isn't a slight against him, just an acknowlegement of what it takes to be a great player, and how guys develop over time.

Calcountry · 10-19-2009, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EyePod

I did hate when Vrabel missed that tackle on the huge run by portis though... I'll let him go for that hit on Collins in the endzone right after he threw it... God I love safeties....

Tell, me, did that piece of shit Portis wave his championship belt after the game this time?

I will never forget the kick in the gut that game in Denver gave me.

Chiefnj2 · 10-19-2009, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SensibleChiefsfan

To be clear..... I think Allen is a franchise player in the NFL. He is better than Hali beyond question. I just think that his production was clearly benefited by adding talent around him and game situations. Things that Hali does not have the benefit of at this time.

Additionally, Allen was a one dimensional player early and it wasn't until 2007 that he really put everything together and became dominant.

That isn't a slight against him, just an acknowlegement of what it takes to be a great player, and how guys develop over time.

Hali does not have the benefit of talent around him? Allen had Sims on the line his first two years. Hali has two top 5 picks on the DL who don't appear to be the busts that Sims is/was.

SenselessChiefsFan · 10-19-2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

Hali does not have the benefit of talent around him? Allen had Sims on the line his first two years. Hali has two top 5 picks on the DL who don't appear to be the busts that Sims is/was.

Allen had an OFFENSE.

I know that this is complex stuff for you... but when you have an explosive offense, the other team tends to have to pass more.

It is the entire team, not just the defensive line.

Chiefnj2 · 10-19-2009, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SensibleChiefsfan

Allen had an OFFENSE.

I know that this is complex stuff for you... but when you have an explosive offense, the other team tends to have to pass more.

It is the entire team, not just the defensive line.

Allen's 2nd year - KC opponents threw the ball 559 times. That's 35 per game average
This year opponents have thrown 203 times, or 34 per game on average. That one additional attempt per game created a huge advantage for Allen.

Hydrae · 10-19-2009, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

Allen's 2nd year - KC opponents threw the ball 559 times. That's 35 per game average
This year opponents have thrown 203 times, or 34 per game on average. That one additional attempt per game created a huge advantage for Allen.

From what I have read in this thread, Allen got 11 sacks that year. Tamba is on track to at least come close to that and I think everyone will agree that Allen is the better talent. But that shows that Tamba is not a bust and is playing solidly this year in a new position.

Not that I care, it is fun watching you guys go back and forth. But you have to keep your arguments clean.

Chiefnj2 · 10-19-2009, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hydrae

From what I have read in this thread, Allen got 11 sacks that year. Tamba is on track to at least come close to that and I think everyone will agree that Allen is the better talent. But that shows that Tamba is not a bust and is playing solidly this year in a new position.

Not that I care, it is fun watching you guys go back and forth. But you have to keep your arguments clean.

I never opined on Hali. I was only arguing against Sensible's claim that Allen developed only when Boone and Hali came aboard.

To go back. I liked the Hali draft pick. I think a team can win a championship with him at LDE as long as you have a strong RDE. I think he's a solid 43 lineman.

I think he's exceeding the expectations of 99% of this board (myself included) with his play at OLB. All that being said, I still think he's more of a complimentary player than a "cornerstone". Even if he puts up 9 sacks this year, I still don't view him as the difference maker that Allen is/was. I think offenses game plan around Allen. I don't think they do it for Hali, and I'm fairly certain Pioli is going to try to draft that cornerstone pass rusher within the first two rounds next year.

ChiefsCountry · 10-19-2009, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

I never opined on Hali. I was only arguing against Sensible's claim that Allen developed only when Boone and Hali came aboard.

To go back. I liked the Hali draft pick. I think a team can win a championship with him at LDE as long as you have a strong RDE. I think he's a solid 43 lineman.

I think he's exceeding the expectations of 99% of this board (myself included) with his play at OLB. All that being said, I still think he's more of a complimentary player than a "cornerstone". Even if he puts up 9 sacks this year, I still don't view him as the difference maker that Allen is/was. I think offenses game plan around Allen. I don't think they do it for Hali, and I'm fairly certain Pioli is going to try to draft that cornerstone pass rusher within the first two rounds next year.

This on all accounts.

RedThat · 10-19-2009, 11:41 AM

I see Hali as a complimentary player. A decent player who can possibly end up with 8 sacks tis year.

I think he will be nothing more then a decent player. I believe he is not viewed as a relentless passrusher, and thats what seperates him from greatness. He doesn't get in the backfield enough or apply enough pressure to force the QB's into bad throws. I also don't see him bat down balls at the LOS, and he has very little moves as a passrusher. His effort is there no question, but, when I see him get stood up by RB's and TE's, I don't see that as a good sign.

Even though I think he is ok. An okay player could get upgraded or replaced. An okay player isn't going to make a difference. This team still needs a passrusher no if's and's or but's about it.

**BossChief** · 10-19-2009, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SensibleChiefsfan

Jared Allen didn't really produce until he had talent lining up next to him in Boone and Hali rushing from the other side.

HOLY MOTHER OF GOD!!!

I wonder if some people actually watch the games or just build opinions off of others.

Jared Allen had 8 sacks in his rookie year, one that he only got on the field around the halfway point.

The next year he had 10 or 11, playing next to Sims and Dalton.

Hali came in the next year and Jareds sack total dropped to like 7, so no his totals didnt go up because he was across from the great Hali.

A "Cornerstone" DEMANDS a double team to be slowed down and cannot be shut out of a game unless trippled. Hali can be single blocked most the game.

I like his progression so far, but lets not go full reerun.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 10-19-2009, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BossChief

HOLY MOTHER OF GOD!!!

I wonder if some people actually watch the games or just build opinions off of others.

Jared Allen had 8 sacks in his rookie year, one that he only got on the field around the halfway point.

The next year he had 10 or 11, playing next to Sims and Dalton.

Hali came in the next year and Jareds sack total dropped to like 7, so no his totals didnt go up because he was across from the great Hali.

A "Cornerstone" DEMANDS a double team to be slowed down and cannot be shut out of a game unless trippled. Hali can be single blocked most the game.

I like his progression so far, but lets not go full reerun.

Hali demands a TE or RB.

So there.

**BossChief** · 10-19-2009, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SensibleChiefsfan

Oh, and IF Hali gets 11 this year, will he be a 'force'?

Just want to set the ground rules..... because I think 10 is coming....11 is possible.

And, 'if' he is a force, does that mean a cornerstone?

Dude, if Hali gets 11 sacks Ill cut off my arms with a pumpkin carver

10-18-2009, 01:57 PM
Hammock Parties I'll be back. Join Date: Nov 2002 Casino cash: $750478	Vrabel and Hali are studs! One sack apiece today! We haven't seen a pass rush like this since the days of Derrick Thomas and Neil Smith!
Posts: 297,569

10-19-2009, 10:49 AM	#109
SenselessChiefsFan MVP Join Date: Nov 2008 Casino cash: $10005450	To be clear..... I think Allen is a franchise player in the NFL. He is better than Hali beyond question. I just think that his production was clearly benefited by adding talent around him and game situations. Things that Hali does not have the benefit of at this time. Additionally, Allen was a one dimensional player early and it wasn't until 2007 that he really put everything together and became dominant. That isn't a slight against him, just an acknowlegement of what it takes to be a great player, and how guys develop over time.
Posts: 5,540

10-19-2009, 11:41 AM	#117
RedThat Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Earth Casino cash: $10004900	I see Hali as a complimentary player. A decent player who can possibly end up with 8 sacks tis year. I think he will be nothing more then a decent player. I believe he is not viewed as a relentless passrusher, and thats what seperates him from greatness. He doesn't get in the backfield enough or apply enough pressure to force the QB's into bad throws. I also don't see him bat down balls at the LOS, and he has very little moves as a passrusher. His effort is there no question, but, when I see him get stood up by RB's and TE's, I don't see that as a good sign. Even though I think he is ok. An okay player could get upgraded or replaced. An okay player isn't going to make a difference. This team still needs a passrusher no if's and's or but's about it.
Posts: 6,666